Oh yes, the cognitive machine, and most other things are much more physical, their 所有物／資産／財産s are more すぐに comprehensible. You can put this cup on the saucer and it doesnt go through it, you can see what happens, you know what will happen. On the computer it is やめる the contrary. On the computer, 外見 has nothing to do with what it is really doing, a good designer can visualize what it is doing, but if you don't do good design, it is 完全に inunderstandable.

In a sense you have to reinvent natural 法律s that will work on the 審査する ... ^{[公式文書，認める 4]}

That is true, but not natural 法律s, you should 現実に invent new 法律s that ultimates and optimizes this new medium. For example, it turns out that the best way to do 活気／アニメーション is not physical 活気／アニメーション but 風刺漫画 活気／アニメーション. If you run out of a cliff you don't 落ちる 負かす／撃墜する すぐに, or if you are arriving at something you dont stop すぐに, it goes like this ... a little jiggle. Or the acceleration when you start moving is not linear. If you want to open a window you doubleclick on an icon and it should jiggle a little bit before it opens, to give you the feeling that it will soon start doing something, then the window will open with a 変化させるd acceleration 速度(を上げる）. 風刺漫画 活気／アニメーション is 現実に the best way to communicate movement ...

Yes, but not just the movement, but also the actual 製図／抽選 style of symbols and icons. I remember that Peter Bickford ^{[公式文書，認める 5]} wrote a column in AppleDirections about that when he was with Apple ...

I think several people have done that ... too many people who work with computers have very literal 工学 backgrounds and they look up in the physics handbook how things move, but that is not how they move in 風刺漫画 活気／アニメーション, to 設立する out that you have to watch Walt Disney and Walter Lanz and those guys

井戸／弁護士席, let's move to how to 伝える a message in a broader sense. We who 支持する the 普及した use of （警察などへの）密告，告訴（状） 科学（工学）技術, how can we talk about this 革命 without sounding as 宗教的な fanatics?

We 支持するs tend to give people the impression that this is an important big thing, then they see in the real world that nothing much is happening, so there is as 傾向 to 誇張する the short 称する，呼ぶ／期間／用語 importance. On the other 手渡す there is a 傾向 to underestimate the long 称する，呼ぶ／期間／用語 changes. We can of course not truly 予報する the 未来 of the internet. What we can do is how much our imagination 許すs us to do, the really important changes that will happen, we have not thought of.

When I say long 称する，呼ぶ／期間／用語 I only mean 5-10 years, not really long 称する，呼ぶ／期間／用語. If you look two years ahead, there is not that big a change, so for example there is always people 予報するing the bandwidth growth, and that we will have beautiful 十分な 動議 ビデオ and things like that. But the only way to get better bandwidth is to send our guys and トラックで運ぶs and dig up the streets and that takes a long time, so the 大多数 of web 使用者s will have slow modems the next several years, which means that the 支配するing 基準 for web design has to be 急速な／放蕩な download times, snappy 返答 times. Interaction is the value of the web and interaction 要求するs sub-second 返答 times. This is not something I have discovered, 支援する in the 60's people made 熟考する／考慮するs about this, from when you 攻撃する，衝突する enter till you get to the next 審査する, it must be いっそう少なく than a second, さもなければ people think this mainframe has stopped running. This was 支援する in the old days ...

So what do you think will happen the next few years?

My 予測 is that the Internet will be ten thousand times as important in five years as it is now. This number comes from multiplying a factor of ten for 科学（工学）技術 改良s, a factor of ten for 増加するd number of 使用者s, and a factor of a hundred for 増加するd richness and number of services.

We both have written articles about how people are getting more and more annoyed with big 広告s or animated 広告s ^{[公式文書，認める 6]} that slow 負かす／撃墜する the 負担ing of pages and even 原因（となる）s system 衝突，墜落s いつかs. 速度(を上げる） and 簡単 seem to remain important 問題／発行するs for a while ...

速度(を上げる） is of the 最大の importance. Any design 事業／計画（する） is short 称する，呼ぶ／期間／用語, because you know that everything will change next year anyway, so you only design for about one year's time でっちあげる，人を罪に陥れる. In the short 称する，呼ぶ／期間／用語 速度(を上げる） 支配するs. You might say that my web page is so brilliant, so wonderful that people will wait for it. No they won't! Because there are two million other places they can go instead. Nobody is so good that you can afford to just ignore this basic 原則 that has been known since the sixties.

With hyperlinks you have so many ways out from a 場所／位置. And I guess that is really a tremendous problem with 旗，新聞一面トップの大見出し／大々的に報道する 広告s.

井戸／弁護士席, 旗，新聞一面トップの大見出し／大々的に報道する 広告s don't work. People 実験 with other things like interstitials, sponsored content etc. I think the basic point about the web is that it is not an advertising medium, the web is not a selling medium, it is a buying medium. It is 使用者 controlled, so the 使用者 支配（する）／統制するs, the 使用者 experiences. My 手渡す is on the mouse, I decide where I want to go. If I don't like it here, I will go a lot of other places instead.

 
"There is another problem, my （弁護士の）依頼人s will 軍隊 me to design bad web 場所／位置s," says Jakob Nielsen.  Photo © Karl-Erik Tallmo.

So you cannot count on giving people such a rich experience that they will enjoy so much that they will sit and take in whatever you're showing them. That is television thinking or magazine thinking. But the web is about: what can I do? It is not that one doesn't want to spend money. On the contrary. If people can buy something they will buy it. The problem with online 商業 is やめる often that you can't buy. It is either too difficult to buy, the usability doesn't work, or the 製品 選択 is not 十分な, a lot of companies just put up, for example, three 製品s. The web is optimized for 包括的な 製品 選択s, having thousands of 製品s in all colors and sizes.

Do you think advertizing will become more "非，不，無-商業の", that it will consist more of straightforward （警察などへの）密告，告訴（状）, more of tips about 類似の 製品s and such things, that computers are good at keeping 跡をつける of, like, for instance, アマゾン.com are doing?

Yes, they make it 平易な for you to buy. That is the 重要な on the web. It is very 使用者 driven so it is not so much to say "let me get my message across", as 説: "what do you want to do?" Find som things that people want to do and then give it to them and they will take it.

There is also some talk now about 支払う／賃金ing the 使用者 for looking at 広告s.

That is, I think, 完全に stupid, because the only people who will 支払う／賃金 are the ones who are not good prospects. The people who you really want to reach - their time is too 価値のある for getting 支払う／賃金d to to sit and watch an 広告. If you have your own web 場所／位置 up, then of course you have to 促進する it in other マスコミ. The 顧客 is always 権利, that is an old-fashioned 説 but on the web it is really true.

Do you think the 広告 機関s have 円熟したd? Only a little more than a year ago many of them 急ぐd in believing they knew everything, （人命などを）奪う，主張するing computer people knew nothing about marketing. On the other 手渡す the marketing people knew very little about the web ...

正確に／まさに. I also think they have learned something about interaction. The model for advertising is that you as the 使用者 really want to watch this film on television, but ーするために watch it we just have to make you also watch this 国会 Coke 商業の. That is the method for television advertising. The interaction has been absent, it has only been about to keep the 使用者's 手渡す away from the remote 支配（する）／統制する. On the Internet it is just the opposite, get the 使用者 to move around on your website. That is the goal of web design.

And in a magazine, いつかs you read just to look at the 広告s, like if you are planning to buy a used car or something like that, but mostly if you are reading a magazine, you have big 陳列する，発揮する 広告s that we want readers to look at instead of the text. On-line you don't need that, you don't have to shake them up, they are already looking at you, so the 必要物／必要条件s of glamour and fanciful design 減少（する）s 劇的な, and what goes up 劇的な is the 必要物／必要条件 for the 使用者 to be able to do something, get some value out of the web 場所／位置. In a magazine, the only thing you can do is to turn the page. On the computer you have all these 選択s, and this 複雑さ, so unless you make it really 平易な for people to use, they will get lost in the web 場所／位置. The good 機関s have begun to understand these differences now.

Hard earned experiences in many 事例／患者s ...

Very hard earned. But the difference between a good professional and a bad professional is whether they will make the same mistake, will they make something new they never tried before. They will probably both make mistakes, but the good ones will learn from experience. Now there is another problem, I do know how to design good web 場所／位置s, but my （弁護士の）依頼人s won't 許す me to do that. My （弁護士の）依頼人s will 軍隊 me to design bad web 場所／位置s, because they want a web 場所／位置 that looks glamorous when they give a デモ to their 副／悪徳行為 大統領，／社長 of marketing. Most of them care mostly about 内部の politics, they have 会合s only with each other and never see a 顧客.

Do you believe interactivity could be overstressed, both in 広告s and other content, so that it distracts and 干渉するs in a wrong way?

I think you should have a very clean message, which takes you to the web 場所／位置, and there you give people all the 選択s. It's ridiculous to try to design a 十分な-featured 使用者 interface in a 旗，新聞一面トップの大見出し／大々的に報道する 広告. And you have to be honest. There are trick 広告s, that look like dialog boxes, that take advantage of people 存在 stupid, fooling them to click on them. And sure they will get a very high click-through 率, but they will also get a very high 保釈（金）-out 率, when people 攻撃する，衝突する the 支援する 重要な すぐに when they see where they 結局最後にはーなる. So you really should count click-through 率s minus 保釈（金）-out 率s, only people who are staying at a web 場所／位置 are 利益／興味ing.

旗，新聞一面トップの大見出し／大々的に報道する 広告s should really be as simple hypertext links, and then we go 支援する to basic hypertext theory. A hypertext link has two ends, a starting point and an end point. At the starting point, the point of 出発, where the rhetorical 問題／発行する is to explain to people why they should leave their 現在の 状況, and what 推定する／予想するs them at the other end of the rainbow, at the other end of the link. Then you 結局最後にはーなる in a new 状況, different from the one you （機の）カム from, and you have to orient yourself in this new world. That is the rhetoric of arrival, how to 知らせる people of the meaning of the new world. That is the two basic points, almost all of these 広告s 完全に 行方不明になる them. They just say "look at me", but don't explain where I am going to go. And when you arrive, there is often no 関係 to why you clicked this 明確な／細部 link.

You said in one of your Alertbox columns that micropayments might be a way out of the problem to make 抱擁する 多数伝達媒体を用いる 生産／産物s since it is so hard to （疑いを）晴らす the 権利s with lots of 権利s 支えるもの／所有者s. But on the web, don't you think this could have the same 影響 as the WIPO suggestion two years ago - they 手配中の，お尋ね者 to 告発（する），告訴（する）／料金 the 使用者 for each 見解（をとる）ing of a picture etc.

基本的に I believe in micropayments, that are so small that if you いつか click by mistake it will not really 傷つける you. If you have big 支払い（額）s you will have more of this I want my money 支援する, I didn't want to go to this web 場所／位置. But if it is a very small 支払い（額）, it will not be 価値（がある） it. It is a 抱擁する difference, as long as the 支払い（額） is very low, around one cent is the typical 支払い（額） that we are talking about, then your 月毎の 料金 for using the Internet is going to be 10-20 dollars ...

Don't you think this discourages people from coming 支援する and read good stuff again or just check up something? They will rather download it on their own harddrives.

The next time you come to a website to get the same （警察などへの）密告，告訴（状）, it will be 解放する／自由な or almost 解放する／自由な. So in other words, it will not be 価値（がある） it for you to keep your own copies. I say almost, because there is still some service that you should 支払う／賃金 for, 持続するing the individual copy, it is much better to have the 古記録s kept on the 逮捕する, that is one of the 力／強力にするs of the computer 網状組織, and you don't have to worry about it.

Will content providers, authors, photographers etc. soon 取引，協定 直接／まっすぐに with the reader or 使用者 instead of 経由で copyright organisations, do you think?

When I say 直接／まっすぐに I don't mean you will draw a 契約 with each 使用者, that would be too 複雑にするd. The 使用者 will go 直接／まっすぐに to the individual author, artist or whatever, but the 支払い（額）  will be 扱うd by a micropayment 通関手続き／一掃 service, which will be more of the nature of a bank. An 利益／興味ing question is who will 構成する such micropayment 通関手続き／一掃 services, there are many 選択s. It could be a bank, it could be the phone companies, since they are used to 扱う very small 支払い（額）s for calls, it could be an ISP, because they know how to 扱う Internet communications.

Do you believe that （警察などへの）密告，告訴（状） wants to be 解放する／自由な? We have two 解釈／通訳s of this スローガン, that （警察などへの）密告，告訴（状） wants to flow 自由に and that it should be 解放する／自由な of 告発（する），告訴（する）／料金. We have this nice quotation from Thomas Jefferson that we may light each other's candles ... but on the other 手渡す we have a protectionistic 傾向, that I can feel myself. If I have a good idea for an article I don't want to tell everyone about it. This might also lead to 保護 not only for the 明確な／細部 表現 of an idea, like we have today, but maybe also 保護 for the idea behind the work, as with 特許s.

特許s are going to be very big on the Internet, by the way. There is a 抱擁する 特許 大当り coming on, as people 人物／姿／数字 out how to run 網状組織s and do 商売／仕事 on the 逮捕する. In a 蓄える／店 you can't 特許 the doors or something, but on the 逮捕する, if you design ソフトウェア to 自動化する something you can 特許 it. A lot of companies who are 早期に out will get 広大な／多数の／重要な 利益s from 存在 the first, one 推論する／理由 to go out on the Internet now is in fact the 特許 問題／発行する.

But to go 支援する to （警察などへの）密告，告訴（状）, I don't think （警察などへの）密告，告訴（状） wants to be 解放する／自由な, I think （警察などへの）密告，告訴（状） wants to be cheap.  People used to do copyprotected ソフトウェア, which is 現実に copyright transferred to the computer, but if another company made a 製品 that was not 保護するd, people would buy that instead, even if it was not as good. Make it so cheap that it just isn't 価値（がある） it for people to make 著作権侵害者 copies!

Yes, people often overlook the fact that there is such a big market on the Internet. But on the other 手渡す people who 供給する （警察などへの）密告，告訴（状） in small languages like Swedish or Danish have a problem, the English market is so much bigger.

Maybe the micropayments must be a little higher on smaller markets, but I still think that 支払い（額）s must be 比較して low, as other expenses go away, from print and paper. But it cannot be 解放する／自由な, good （警察などへの）密告，告訴（状） has to be edited by somebody and those people have to eat.

You could also put it: （警察などへの）密告，告訴（状） is 目的（とする）d at somebody, it wants to reach somebody, さもなければ writers and artist wouldn't do what they do ...

That is why it has to be cheap. Some services, like Los Angeles Times, 告発（する），告訴（する）／料金 1.5 dollars for an article, and that means that nobody uses it, unless they 猛烈に need to get a 確かな article.

You について言及するd some sort of fame-率ing in one of your columns, like the Alexa service, I guess. But if you depend on 使用者 率ing too much, don't you think there is a 危険 for populism, like in televison where they are bound up very tightly by テレビ視聴者 統計（学）?

A 広大な／多数の／重要な question, but no. Alexa is not a perfect service, but it is the first example of a new type we need. We should not count that 10,000 people liked this while 100 people liked that, so therefore the first one is better. That is not the goal. The goal is to keep 跡をつける of who likes what, and then use that to 予報する what you would like. The point is that there are millions of people there, there will soon be a billion people on the Internet, so no 事柄 how obscure or oddball or weird taste or ideas you have, there are people like you on the Internet, and a service should be able to find those people.

You have now formed the Nielsen Norman Group together with Don Norman, and I read on your homepage that you will not design websites but rather help designing the  ideas  behind a 明確な／細部, 使用者-friendly website.

科学（工学）技術 is irrelevant for the next 段階 which will be 支配するd by the growth of an 前例のない number of diverse services with の近くに and direct 接触する between 顧客s and companies over the 逮捕する. 取引，協定ing with this flood of service providers - essentially any company in the world that wants to 生き残る in the 21st century - is much more important than 改善するing the 科学（工学）技術.

My areas of 専門的知識 have been usability 工学 and hypertext: both were very much considered as esoteric specialties that only a few computer companies and university 研究 departments would care about. With the growth of the Web, every 選び出す／独身 company will have an interactive hypermedia system as their 最初の／主要な 接触する with their 顧客s, and usability becomes a 核心 competency for 商売／仕事 in the 網状組織 economy. If your 場所／位置 is hard to use, it's the same as having a shop that is only open Wednesday from 15-16: you will do very little 商売／仕事 and most 顧客s will prefer to go どこかよそで.

A lot of people don't look at the web as an intractive system, they just look at it as a channel that can 爆破 at the 使用者. But if you 見解（をとる） the web as if it were television or a newspaper or a one-way communications channel, you are losing the 力／強力にする of the web, and all you have left is an empoverished medium. The 力／強力にする of the web is to engage the 使用者 in interaction.

(This interview took place in Stockholm in May '98 with a few 付加 questions and answers 交流d through e-mail in August '98.)